UPDATED: Benazir Bhutto on the Battle Between Dictatorship and Democracy
Thursday night I attended a brief interview session with former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. She later spoke at Southwestern University in Georgetown, Texas– this year’s Shilling lecturer. Last year Bishop Desmond Tutu gave Southwestern’s Shilling lecture.
Bhutto’s lecture expanded on her answers in the interview section. Southwestern did an outstanding job with her lecture. No sound gltches, started on time, and the venue surprisingly intimate– especially since Bhutto gave the speech in the gymnasium. With heavy black wall drapes and a stage with podium it was a gym smartly transformed. Southwestern is an NCAA Division III school in a conference that includes other liberal arts colleges and universities like Sewanee, Rhodes, Trinity, and Oglethorpe. Georgetown is about thirty miles north of Austin. The Austin American-Statesmen reported the 1700 people attended the lecture– I can verify that the floor seats were packed.
Only two other reporters sat in on the media session– Camille Wheeler of the American Statesman and a student reporter from the Southwestern school paper– so we had an opportunity to get more than a soundbite. Here are two of Bhutto’s intricate answers to several questions I asked her.
BHUTTO (initial statement):
I?ll be talking tonight about what is needed for a more stable world and what is needed in Muslim countries how democracy can be a better impetus to educational and gender reform.
And how democracy undermines the forces of terrorism
I will speak about the reason for repeated military dictatorships so many military dictatorships Pakistan, Philippines, Indonesia, why these are the countries where we now have terrorist cells you see them through Indonesia and Pakistan. I will argue that these military regimes relied on war and force, ruled by force, they raised a generation that believed power came through force and violent means. I will be speaking how the military dictatorships or authoritarian rulers would not tolerate mainstream political parties or democratic parties viewing them as a threat and therefore only parties that could approach the masses were the religious parties and the religious parties then had an open field for promoting there politics and modern democratic parties did not have their opportunity.
We have to give the people of the Muslim choice, not a choice between a dictatorship and whether military dictatorship or religious dictatorship And this is where the joys of democracy become so powerful for changing peoples minds. We must educate the youth how change can come about peacefully. To educate the masses how they can change through the majesty of law and the constitution.
I believe the Muslim people need to be saved form the militant groups that grew strong because of a particular past and the way to save the Muslim people in Muslim societies is through democracy and promoting justice through independence of the judiciary.
BAY: There?s a democratic surge in the Middle East?what can stop it?
BHUTTO:
There is certainly a surge towards democracy. This year has been a remarkable one. In some ways like the year when the Berlin Wall fell and the momentum for freedom we?ve had elections Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine. And we?ve seen how the people of Lebanon are now on the streets and talking about their independence. However, the militants are still there and the beneficiaries of the old order are still there. We must remember that while the masses are on one side, there is also an entrenched vested interest that has been created through years of dictatorship or subjugation and these people are waiting to hit out at every single opportunity and they can hit out through several different ways and they can hit out with intrigue or conspiracy or hit out by violent means ? beheadings, car bombs, assassination. In fact Iraq is very critical to future direction the Middle East. Success or failure in Iraq will have a profound impact of the future direction of the e Middle East,. And certainly those people who are carrying out the b the beheadings and the kidnappings and tape-recording with the videotapes of their victims.
The video tapes of the beheadings?[they are] trying to create the terror at the horror, to lead to an early pullout, or diversion of the international communities attention so they [international community] leave. That must not happen. We?ve got to remember of Germany and Japan. It took a generation to build the political and social institutions the judicial barristers, the civil services that enable those countries to continue as vibrant successful democracies. We must remember after WWII, if the allied powers had turned their attention away after a year or two, well at that time the Nazi forces were still pretty entrenched, They may have tried a comeback. I think there needs to be a commitment to the promotion of freedom and patience and perseverance are required in knowing that people liberated from decades of repression and cruelty without any political institutions or political systems need the help of the international community. And while there may be voices that say why should the international community continue to stay after all let the peoplesort it out for themselves we must remember that this is one world now, a global village, this is one world and whatever happens in a part of the world affects another part of the world?.We?ve seen that if peace is to be built and stability is to be built?We must have a common commitment to help humanity move o to the road of modernity and progress in this century.
BAY: You mentioned the oppressed that don?t have political institutions to adapt to modernity How has imprisonment shaped you as a political leader and how does that shape you now? You seem to have a direct understanding of that situation.
BHUTTO:
I fought against General Zia military dictatorship in the 1980s. I was in prison for long periods of time. I was fortunate because I studied at Harvard on the East Coast.. I saw freedom here, tolerance here, pluralism here. I saw people who could criticize the rulers without being arrested I saw people gathering together for peace marches against the war in Vietnam. I was here at the Watergate crisis and I saw the president being brought down by people than the president crushing the people.
Throughout the years I was in prison despite the difficulties trials illnesses, the solitary confinement I was determined to make a difference in the lives of the people of my country. When I became prime minister of Pakistan there was the expectation that overnight Pakistan would become a democratic country
And so I saw first hand how there was this enormous surge in public opinion for democracy. But people who became powerful during dictatorship who had become politically or economically powerful were able [to undermine]
So I know that the expectations are great thinking victory has taken place, without realizing there is the morning after that the basis the reconstruction of a political system takes time,. Patience, perseverance. It takes time, time to train people, time for various institutions to come to grips. For example the people in the judiciary had all been appointed by the dictator It takes the judicial service I feel this will be the same in Iraq, wherever there has been authoritarian rule. People have a particular mindset the elites have a particular mindset. [This takes time to change.]
The masses want the power but there is a struggle between the elites who want to take back their position and the ordinary people. Then I realized what happened in Germany and Japan. The allied powers made the commitment to Germany and Japan for military support and economic support that those two countries remained stable without once again being sucked into a horrific past.
I’ll transcribe the rest of my notes and tape, possibly Sunday evening. Camille Wheeler asked Bhutto a superb question about women in senior leadership roles. I want to add Bhutto’s response to my question about her role models as a leader– and I laced that question with references to Margaret Thatcher and Indira Ghandi. A hint of Ms. Bhutto’s long and fascinating answer: Maggie, yes, Indira, no. I knew she is a Thatcherite of a certain stripe. Bhutto is a private-sector advocate, but knows how difficult it is to create the civic and governmental-judicial framework that encourages and protects private initiative.
The democratic surge in the Muslim Middle East was the center of her interview and lecture. Bhutto argued that the revolution is on (and all of you know I agree). Afghanistan, Palestine, then Iraq have created the opportunities for democratizing the Middle East. Muslim countries world-wide (including Pakistan) have a change to escape the yoke of dictatorship. She made the case that tyranny has distorted Muslim societies and distorted Islam.
I didn’t ask her about nukes. I know about the nukes, I know she got missile plans for Pakistan from North Korea .
Austin How was the lecture? I, as an alumnus of Southwestern, had been extended the opportunity to get a couple of tickets for the lecture. I neglected to act on that opportunity. Damn. Besides, I’m sure that you, like many bloggers, wouldn’t mind being treated to a couple of beers by a blog reader.
Comment by Arthur — 3/11/2005 @ 8:21 pm
Austin, Nice job in getting to talk to Bhutto. Like the previous poster I too am an alumnus of Southwestern and could have come down, but I didn’t have the time during this month. It’s apparent that Southwestern has got a bit more money in its coffers to pay for such well-known speakers (must be from the pockets of Red McCombs, who is head of the board of trustees). In addition to Bhutto and Tutu, Rigoberta Menchu, Carlos Fuentes and Jimmy Carter also came by to speak. Not bad for a school of 1200 students! Makes me wonder what visitors our rivals at Trinity University in San Antonio get…
Comment by Julien — 3/13/2005 @ 11:08 am
Arthur–I (current SU student who attended) wasn’t too impressed with the speech, personally. I liked the half where she spoke of what was happening in the world. However, the other half sounded too much like a campaign speech. Since the speech at least appeared to be pro-Bush doctrine (I’ve heard people disagree with that assessment), it didn’t go over too well with the people around me. At least one person said, “Well she couldn’t truly say what she wanted to say about Bush.” Rubbish. Another interesting thing I had heard after the speech, from someone rather knowledgable about the topic, is that Bhutto was as pro-Bush as she was because she was “campaigning” to be the Bush Administration’s choice to take over for Pervez Musharraf. Couple of reasons I don’t buy this–I can’t imagine the admin. creating the upheaval to remove Musharraf and install Bhutto. Another reason in the person who told me this is very pro-Musharraf, as well.
Comment by Dustin — 3/13/2005 @ 11:27 am
Nice scoop, Austin! Word of caution: Bhutto is, and always will be, a seasoned politician, with few or no scruples, or standing principles. She was one of the elites hersef, when in power, and looted her country shamelessly. She was also very confrontational with India, vis-a-vis Kashmir, and was rather unpopular in India during her brief years in power. Her husband, Asif Zardari, himself was a crook of the first order, although his harsh imprisonment and subsequent death in custody under Musharraf was tragic. Like Hillary, she can wear many stripes, and currently pro-Bush colors are in vogue in strange places. I personally despise Musharraf and admire Bush myself, but probably for different reasons from Bhutto, who’s primary concern is a return to power. Bhutto was debating champ at Harvard, and knows how to win over audiences. Don’t confuse this remarkable skill with having any steady convictions. Even if she is committed to democracy, that does not say anything about her beliefs. She is pro-American since America has paid Pakistan’s bills since the early 80s. Any leader of Pakistan since and including General Zia has been pro-American (as bizzare as that sounds, coming from the country that created the Taliban). When she looks at the American President, she doesn’t see Bush or Clinton - she sees a fat allowance and a security guarantee. Once voted one of the most beautiful faces in the world, Bhutto knows how to charm an audience, but beware her true intentions.
Comment by Rahul — 3/13/2005 @ 11:50 am
Benazir Bhutto headed a party of klptocrats which robbed Pakistan blind. She is not a suitabe leader for Pakistan which needs to get away from nepotism and corruption. Mouscharraf is in power for good reason at this time. Let us hope he is successful in breeding a younger generation of politicians dedicated to high standards of public life to form a new party.
Comment by sarasara — 3/13/2005 @ 4:35 pm
[…] is an option that’s left for The Left. I know the Arab Spring is a delicate thing. See Benazir Bhutto’s comments about the “entrenched interests” that can stop democrat […]
Pingback by Austin Bay Blog » The Millennium Era: After Iraq, will a bi-partisan foreign policy re-emerge? — 3/18/2005 @ 2:29 pm
CORRECTION Sorry for the mixup in my earlier comment. While Asif Zardari, Benazir’s husband, is still a crook, and was indeed imprisoned, he was only gravely ill in prison, but did not die. He’s very much alive, out of jail, and by Benazir’s side. On the other hand, I do disagree with sarasara about Musharraf, who is a ruthless dictator, plain and simple. The reason the extremists are the only opposition to the General, is because he has eliminated or exiled all moderate opposition. It should be a telling fact that the Pakistani public is shifting its support to the religious parties, simply because that is the only alternative to Pervez.
Comment by Rahul — 3/22/2005 @ 11:37 am
Please help for ALL BHUTTO’s Family Members & Provide JOB’s
Comment by Parvez Bhutto — 4/11/2005 @ 2:05 am
Dear sir,hello i am talha abbasi from pakistan please can u tell me the benazir bhutto e-mail address.i am sutdent of szabist college larkana province sindh pakistan..please send as soon as possible..
Comment by talha abbasi — 2/3/2006 @ 9:23 pm
I’m a proud Pakistani national,…& god! I have lots to say abt Ms. Bhutto,..i have seen time of her governance & am convinced that she is a blunt liar,..a genuine hypocrate,..who left no chance to plunder & loot the country. Infact the entire Bhutto family deserves much worse than what’s all over them these days. People well-informed here with better judgement Never want to see the faces of such culprits. infact a big chunck of Credit goes to Such leaders for countries to lag behind. While she talks of democracies,…….I wonder what definition has she in mind,…about it. I mean if you see in today’s world there is hardly any country with a true democray in effect. take USA the front line campaigner of Free & democracy,….their people (majority) is hijacked by their Congress(minority). it’s a mere number game for vested interests. I personally think Democracy is really good when you have a learned Pulic to deal with,…(where the Input from society carries substance),…Dictatorship is undoubtedly bad,…but it proves well when someone is really sincere for ones country,..(which is extremely hard to find today).
Comment by kareem_elahi — 3/3/2006 @ 9:14 pm
Sir, can u send me the e-mail address of M. Benazir Bhutto. I am the worker of the pakistan peoples party from my childhood. She is the only leader which can save our country. ED NOTE: I cannot help you. I do not have and have never had an email address for Ms. Bhutto.
Comment by Rashid Samin — 4/26/2006 @ 3:36 am
hi to everyone i think that we shuld not be personal and we all should think as pakistani wat pakistan requires is the democratic stability and through democratic process we can achieve this but defending the role of dictatorship is not good initially when Mr musharaf takes over i myself was happy that maybe he can bring new people into pakistani politics as the way he was doing and saying but wat happened the affairs of country had been given to the people those who are and were always involved in different crimes , so please brothers we should come up above of this as no sindhi , punjabi , pathan or balochi is in trouble its pakistan who is in trouble we should pray and strive hard for our country to put it back on the track which we have lost since 1948 . pakistan zindabad all the best my all friends
Comment by aamir — 6/21/2006 @ 3:18 pm
Benazir Bhutto email address is benazeer_bhutto@hotmail.com She uses hotmail to disguise herself.
Comment by George Harrison — 6/13/2007 @ 10:39 am
Assalam-o-alaikum: My name is Shahnawaz ALI SHAH. I live in Pakistan in the province of Sindh. I m a sindhi. Our Village in Thatta. But we live in Karachi. My age is 15. I want to Like u because ur the daughter of Sir Zulfiqar Ali BHUTTO. And he is one of the greatest leader of the muslim world.I want to add u. I m not a Politician so not think that i am not a politician. I search ur e-mail address so with hardworking i search ur e-mail address. And Reply to This E-mail Please please please. Because i want to talk with u. And i heared that ur brother name also was Shahnawaz. So as a brother or as a son reply to me. I will be thankful to you. Allah Hafiz. Shahnawaz Ali Shah (Karachi Pakistan)
Comment by Shahnawaz ALI SHAH — 8/11/2007 @ 12:24 pm
As a city council president, I am far from the struggles of Ms. Bhutto. Yet, as a woman in leadership, I have deep feeling for the support of her. I am also thinking of the children’s book, Annette and Jon Jon, where the child, Annette, finds the way to cut the barbed wire and reconnect with her freind, whose family had recently been perceived as the enemy. Women and children finding the way, which can also be done by men with that deep inner spirit, someone who does not think first of a battle.
Comment by Carol Duff — 11/10/2007 @ 11:43 am