Fifteen to Five: Terrorists Beat Gitmo Guards in Koran “Mishandling”
Call Amnesty International! The Washington Post cites what I assume is a 15-6 military investigative report on “Koran mishandling” incidents at Gitmo. But don’t let the 15-6 military acronym confuse you– the big story is 15 to 5.
The report doesn’t come from an anonymous source (shuckens, Newsweek), but of course, you have to believe the BG who conducted the investigation was interested in the truth.
I think he’s interested in the truth — as dull and voluminous as it is.
We know disrespect for the Bible or Koran is wrong. But consider the big picture. We’re dealing with hundreds of captured terrorists –thugs without uniforms. The US provided them with their books. And we have five confirmed incidents and four possible incidents by US guards; the worst confirmed incident involves a guard who kicked a Koran. Another apparently stepped on a Koran. The report says this guilty guard apologized. (The right thing to do.) But as for the terrorist prisoners “mishandling” of their own holy writ? We’ll consider the Al Qaeda inmates “leading score” in a moment.
The WPost’s lede:
The Pentagon on Friday released new details about mishandling of the Quran at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects, confirming that a soldier deliberately kicked the Muslim holy book and that an interrogator stepped on a Quran and was later fired for “a pattern of unacceptable behavior.”
In other confirmed incidents, a guard’s urine came through an air vent and splashed on a detainee and his Quran; water balloons thrown by prison guards caused an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet; and in a confirmed but ambiguous case, a two-word obscenity was written in English on the inside cover of a Quran.
The findings, released after normal business hours Friday evening, are among the results of an investigation last month by Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, the commander of the detention center in Cuba, that was triggered by a Newsweek magazine report _ later retracted _ that a U.S. soldier had flushed one Guantanamo Bay detainee’s Quran down a toilet.
The story stirred worldwide controversy and the Bush administration blamed it for deadly demonstrations in Afghanistan.
Hood said in a written statement released Friday evening, along with the new details, that his investigation “revealed a consistent, documented policy of respectful handling of the Quran dating back almost 2 1/2 years.”
A spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, Lawrence Di Rita, did not address the confirmed incidents of mishandling the Muslim holy book. Reached while traveling with Rumsfeld in Asia, Di Rita said that U.S. Southern Command policy calls for “serious, respectful and appropriate” handling of the Quran.
“The Hood inquiry would appear to affirm that policy,” Di Rita said.
Hood said that of nine mishandling cases that were studied in detail by reviewing thousands of pages of written records, five were confirmed to have happened. He could not determine conclusively whether the four others took place.
We have the odd incident of urine flying through a grate.
As described in the Hood report, the guard had left his observation post and went outside to urinate. He urinated near an air vent and the wind blew his urine through the vent into the cell block. The incident was not further explained.
This is an odd and curious incident, the kind of thing that only happens in real life where imperfection, failure, and the unexpected confound us all. According to the Post the “urinator” was reprimanded. (He darn well should have been. What he did was abusive, stupid, and wrong.)
Of course the oddest thing about this is a country so devoted to analyzing, debating, and investigating itself– that’s odd, and wonderful in a way.
Five incidents — is that a pattern of abuse? Is that indicative of a policy? Of course not. More shuckens. Newsweek ran the “Koran flushing” story to embarrass the White House and Pentagon and suggest a “cover up” of abuse. Well, the cover is off. Here’s the big revelation: the report finds 15 incidents where prisoners “mishandled” their own Korans.
Hood also said his investigation found 15 cases of detainees mishandling their own Qurans. “These included using a Quran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Quran, attempting to flush a Quran down the toilet and urinating on the Quran,” Hood’s report said. It offered no possible explanation for those alleged abuses.
In the most recent of those 15 cases, a detainee on Feb. 18, 2005, allegedly ripped up his Quran and handed it to a guard, stating that he had given up on being a Muslim. Several of the guards witnessed this, Hood reported.
Apostate action, big time. And it was a terrorist who tried to flush the holy book.
I had lunch Thursday with a friend who, like me, has spent some time in the Middle East. We both enjoy hearing the Koran read aloud– and that subject came up as we discussed his impending trip to Lebanon and my trip to Iraq. I have heard the Koran read in mosques. The Koran is mesmerizing poetry, even if you do not understand Arabic. (I had one semester of Arabic, enough to gain a basic appreciation for the language.)
I would like to know something about the men who had these Korans. I’d like to know their prison record– are they rude? Do they spew anti-American, anti-Semitic, and/or anti-Christian epithets? What were these men doing when they were captured? Did they beat women in Afghanistan who failed to meet the Taliban dress code? Did they break the heads of men whose beards were too short? (That was another Taliban abuse that Newsweek seemed to have forgotten.) Were any of these characters involved in the destruction of the Buddas of Bamiyan? Did they steal food from World Food Program aid convoys? And if they did, how many times did they commit these crimes against the Afghan people? Yes, call Amnesty International. The investigation seems to be glaringly incomplete.
UPDATE: RE: Comment 5 [ED: I meant comment 5 not Comment 1]: where is the word “wonderful” used in the original post? It’s used to describe the US’s capacity for self-criticism. I said the truth at Gitmo is dull and voluminous. “Trivialization” is an excellent word–”Mickey Mouse” might be another. The US military tends to investigate the heck out of everything: traffic accidents, maneuver damage, etc. (Ask a commander about responding to “Congressionals” sometime.) Investigations are required, since the US military is part of the government. Military investigations are also (1) a management tool (what went wrong? what went right?) and (2) a special kind of disciplinary tool– not simply for potential referral of criminal conduct to a court, but one that reinforces the management tool by requiring close, detailed, group reflection.
UPDATE 2: Commenter 24: What is the source of the allegation you make? Unsupported allegations like the one you make will get the comment deleted– though I vaguely remember reading something similar to what you write. Would you send us a link?
UPDATE 3: Thanks– folks have provided references. When I read comment 24 I remembered reading something similar to the story she mentioned. I had forgotten that it was Bethlehem. Jerks from the Mahdi Militia wreaked similar havoc on the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf, when they occupied it in August 2004. The damage to the mosque by the terrorists got very little coverage. They did the kind of things jerks do when they occupy a building– tore up drapes, caused small fires, defecated in aisles, etc. I see ABC News is hyping the urine story– “urine” is such a grabber as a headline. Will stories be written and aired about the prisoners’ backgrounds? Who are these men? What did they do when they served with Al Qaeda and the Taliban? ABC needs to ask them the questions I posed in the original post.
UPDATE 4: Comment 46 and similar thoughts: Okay, you harbor deep doubts. Your post bears a sense of betrayal. I hope that’s not an unfair characterization on my part –a sense of betrayal– but that is the way I read it. Your post indicates to me –and I only have the post to go on, so forgive me if this is inaccurate– your post indicates to me that you have little or no concept of a 15-6 type investigation. But why should you, unless you’ve had to do one at the colonel or brigadier general level? It’s a very rare pain to have to do an o-6 or o-7 (colonel or brigadier) 15-6. You have one laid on your desk and you say “Oh no.” To be honest, I rate the experience as a privilege — in one way it’s a chance to step up and do the right thing– but they are painful and detailed– as well as voluminous and dull. They aren’t soundbites and they aren’t feel good. Since I’ve done a couple, your dismissal (implied dismissal?) strikes me as foolish, or at best inchoate — a rudimentary understanding of reality.
The big joke, however, is on all of us who bother discussing the”Koran mishandling” issue– and that includes Newsweek and its initial “Koran flushing” report. Our focus is Mickey Mouse, in the pejorative sense Disney despises. The big story is the tragically dysfunctional Arab Muslim Middle East that exports its religious and tribal wars as mass terror. The secondary tragedy is spoiled, privileged fools who fail to realize their beautiful liberty is protected by awkward power — and I say awkward, not evil. (That’s an indriect way of telling Noam Chomsky to get a life.) Here’s the upside: The US and its allies –its overt and covert allies– are winning this intricate war, but like a bunch of yammering chumps we’re catatonic about kicking a Koran and a jerk urinating in a grate in Gitmo. Step back: the urine splashes a terrorist sitting a cell. It’s urine, man, not shrapnel, or a 767. Is this My Lai? Is this Nanking? Buchenwald? Stalin? 9/11? The Taliban in full flower? Saddam? How odd and small a focus is this? Will the Boomer Generation ever grow up? Do you have evidence –reliable evidence– on which to question BG Hood’s integrity and the integrity of his report? It turns out in Watergate you’ve relied on the tips of the Number 2 man in the FBI — a Hoover protege.
Please see my post on the inevitability of moral compromise in war– see the quote from Septmeber 25, 2001. That’s reality, sir– mistakes, inadequate responses, oversights, and then trying the hell again because liberty, freedom, and opportunity are worth the individual effort and the united battle. But the blight you suffer from — or at least your post indicates you suffer from– is a hideous blight. You’re defeated if you have so little faith– as well as so narrow a perspective. What’s sad is your defeat is in part our mutual defeat.
UPDATE 5: Comment 48: Good information. Thanks for the comment and input. Perhaps Commenter 46 and I will agree on the FBI. The Feeb’s the world’s best police force (which may not say much for the world). The Red Cross? Great in emergency relief. In terms of record vis a vis the US in war time, check out WWII. The Swiss Red Cross verged on being a propaganda arm of the Nazis– criticizing US camps, blind when it came to German cruelties.
The Red Cross still primarily relies on “prisoner statements” for its reports. Pish. Tut. Let’s take the statements — no reason not to take anyone’s statement– but let’s back up prisoners’ statements with field investigative work. When considering prisoner statements we must factor in Al Qaeda’s intent to use prisoners as sources of agitprop– that’s Al Qaeda’s policy. We must factor in the fact of war– and this is a global war, pitting religious tyrants against a free and open system. Gitmo is not a simple prisoner-as-vicitm story. We must also assay who the prisoners are and why Gitmo even exists.
If the Red Cross will answer my questions regarding the prisoners’ activities and(potential) crimes in Afghanistan — abuse of women, beatings of beardless men, destruction of Bamiyan Buddas, and terror in general– bully for the Red Cross. [ED: Hijacking of food aid convoys– don’t forget that crime– it matters to humanitarian aid advocates like me.] Commenter 46– Will you use your good offices to get the Red Cross and FBI to ask these questions of the prisoners and then verify their answers? It is the right thing to do, for answering these questions — carrying the investigation to this depth– will give us the means to evaluate the entire story and put the shameful “Koran kick” into appropriate perspective. These backgrounds flesh out cause and effect, flesh out who these men are and what their crimes are, and may tell us something about their attitudes as prisoners. Heaven help us but guards are people too and prisoner attitudes my affect them at three o’clock in the morning far more than policy guidelines or common sense and what the heck the White House says (which is why the misbehaving guards drew reprimands or were required to apologize). It turns out the Koran flushing was done by a prisoner–Commenter 46 may doubt that, but he has produced no evidence to support his doubts– and this conclusion impugns Newsweek and its anonymous sources to the max. So let’s agree to dispense with Newsweek as a credible critic. Get the Red Cross and FBI into Gitmo but by darn have them tell us who the terrorists are, and have them investigate the terrorists’ backgrounds. That means trips to Afghanistan. It may mean trips to Saudi Arabia. It may mean trips to Pakistan and for the real low-down, into caves in Waziristan. It certainly means risking kidnapping or death– and potentially beheading on the Internet. I’m not a gambler, but I’m willing to philosophically wager that in Afghanistan we’ll find a woman or two who was terrorized and beaten by one of these imprisoned jerks because she made the grave mistake of wearing mascara. (Will ABC run that as a headline: “Abdul beat her because she wore mascara” — almost has the same snappy appeal as “urinated on the Koran.”) Let’s get the Red Cross and FBI to investigate the entire story to this bitter a detail. Don’t simply trot them out as potential alternative sources until they they can produce something more substantial than BG Hood and answer the fair, reasonable, and –yup– historically interesting questions I pose. Really. Wouldn’t all of us like to know if one of these imprisoned jerks smacked — or killed– a Muslim woman because he didn’t like the way she was dressed? Wouldn’t we like to know if one of these characters murdered 20 or 30 Uzbeks or Tadjiks in an act of “ethnic cleansing?” I would. Why, I’d have a much better way to gauge his relationship with God and exegesis of the Koran.
UPDATE 6: And last. I know it’s tough to answer the questions I’ve posed. That’s why we have so many press reports that take the easy route and impose the template: “Bad America, Good Third World Victims.” The thugs in Gitmo aren’t victims. They are illegal combatants. Amnesty International and the Red Cross are designed to engage a world of “nation states.” An international terrorist organization doesn’t fit their template. It’s next to impossible for them to investigate North Korea’s Stalinist gulags– NoKo denies them access. But they can gather reports (sketchy as they are) via China, South Korea, and refugees (and possibly from intelligence agencies). They can’t go investigate Al Qaeda prisons– Al Qaeda doesn’t have prisons per se, instead it sports beheading chambers and hostage caves. I think a Red Cross or FBI report on AQ beheading chambers and hostage caves would make fascinating reading.
Still no word on how many Korans were desecrated by blood and body parts in those suicide attacks on mosques last week…Oh sorry never mind… those attacks were conducted by muslims on muslims… so that must be ok…
Comment by Mike on Hilton Head — 6/3/2005 @ 9:43 pm
GITMO DETAINEES DESECRATE QURAN That’s the headline you won’t be reading over this AP story filed tonight on investigative findings released by Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, the commander of the detention center in Cuba. Buried down in the AP story about Quran abuses at…
Trackback by Michelle Malkin — 6/3/2005 @ 10:56 pm
Exactly. Just said the same thing. Anybody that read the redacted FBI reports the ACLU is trying to use to support their “torture and abuse” case, would see what these men were about. Their own statements show who they are. They were inconsistent in their statements, claimed they were innocent and then, when confronted with their previous statements that didn’t jive, said they wanted to pray about it or refused to talk any longer. Several indicated they would be happy to kill Americans and Americans got what they deserved on 9/11. Where’s the MSM reporting on this?
Comment by kat-missouri — 6/4/2005 @ 12:03 am
Koran Abuse In the end, our military bent over backwards to accomodate these pieces of **** Much more then they deserved. But still the looney left will believe the terrorists when they say the sky is falling over our own soldiers. They will believe those who w…
Trackback by Flopping Aces — 6/4/2005 @ 1:30 am
I don’t share your belief that this is “wonderful” somehow. What it is - a terrible trivialization of our war effort that will make winning thw war on Terror difficult, if not impossible. This was a waste of time, energy, and resources in a time when we could not afford it. It borders on silly and is evidence of how prepared the Defense Department was to fight this war with an adversarial, hostile media who openly roots for the bad guys. Also, we are not going to learn about the detainees with the Korans because the media has a vested interest in keeping them vague. They want us to picture nervous “detainees” clutching their Korans, not Muhammad Atta at the controls of an airline. No, this is a very bad story on many fronts
Comment by Kate — 6/4/2005 @ 6:02 am
Austin, Your comments are quite right. I have no doubt that the MSM will make a great deal of the five incidents, as opposed to the fifteen instances of abuse by detainees. I can guarantee that the Islamist apologist groups, like CAIR, will be whining about the five instances, but not utter a peep about these Muslims desecrating their own holy book. They are the worst kind of hypocrites.
Comment by Richard DiNardo — 6/4/2005 @ 7:47 am
HOW TO MISHANDLE THE KORAN I repeat my question from my post, WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE LIBRARY AT GITMO? Why do the prisoners get copies of the Koran in the first place? Do they have a right to get this holy book? Don’t they understand that the terrorists are getting inspire…
Trackback by EGO — 6/4/2005 @ 8:21 am
War with rules, the new fun way to try and lose. You don’t get the sense from either the press or for that matter the military that winning this war is that big a deal. The arrogance of that attitude is remarkable.
Trackback by The Pink Flamingo Bar Grill — 6/4/2005 @ 8:25 am
I want the names of the prisoners who abused the Koran. We should make this public so that their families can be “informed”.
Comment by Ion — 6/4/2005 @ 8:52 am
“No, this is a very bad story on many fronts” It is a bad story because it tells us that anyone who printed this story on the front page has lost any sense of perspective or scale. It is a sad day when virtually every outlet American’s depend on for a sense of what is happening in the world has demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that they are incapable of providing it.
Comment by Soldier's Dad — 6/4/2005 @ 8:56 am
I don’t give a Darn what they do with the Koran, unless it’s honoring that book by killing those detainees whose purpose in life is to kill Americans. Treat the Koran with reverance, destroy the detainess. I am so sick of the MSM trying to aid terrorists in destroying my military. What are they trying to accomplish, other than that? They are only appeasers and Traitors.
Comment by PaulofYork — 6/4/2005 @ 9:05 am
I’ll worry about disrespect for religion when the religious freely offer respect to non-believers.
Comment by Brett — 6/4/2005 @ 9:30 am
Cameras are cheap these days. Why is there not a camera pointed into every jail cell in Gitmo? Then we could release the video of these ‘devout’ ‘holy’ detainees abusing their Korans. Hmm, I wonder what would happen to their families when video of ol’ Abdul pissing on the koran is made public. I would like to see that happen. I am not trying to cause trouble, as I’m sure the ‘Religion of Peace’ wouldn’t do anything to harm them. Has Newsweek announced when it is going to do a story on koran abuse by the prisoners?
Comment by Les Nessman — 6/4/2005 @ 9:34 am
The Self-Indulgence Of The American Media And Leftist Establishment Ladies and gentlemen of the blogosphere, dear readers, and friends, I submit to you that this week represents the nadir of responsible thought about the war on terror. We face Islamofascist lunatics who wish to establish Taliban-like tyrannies througho…
Trackback by Captain's Quarters — 6/4/2005 @ 9:48 am
Quran Abuse Breaking now. I have no doubt the mainstream media will be salivating over this story. Before you get sucked in to what will surely be a rush to slime the U.S. Military for mishandling the Quran, read the article very carefully, and keep this in mind.H…
Trackback by Welcome To Andi's World — 6/4/2005 @ 9:52 am
Like General Longstreet said to General Lee after the Battle of Gettysburg. I don’t think we can win anymore. Now that was after a great battle. But I feel the same way today. We can no longer win the war on terror. But this war wasn’t lost on any battlefield. It was lost by a 4 prong attack-the media, the NGOs, the opposition party, and the courts. From defeat on a great battlefield to a story on water balloons and urine. Maybe this country never could win. What we need to discuss. What are the ramifications of losing the war on terror. What does the future hold.
Comment by Kate — 6/4/2005 @ 9:55 am
How many points do you get for blowing up a Mosque? Do you get extra points for each Muslim killed. Two extra points for each Qu’ran vaporized? Infidel beheadings, that would be an extra 15 points for male, 20 for infidel female. Need to adjust your tally. Perspective, that would be what the hate Bush blinded MSM lack.
Comment by 10ksnooker — 6/4/2005 @ 10:03 am
It seems to me that possibly part of this “problem” with the MSM in how they report on this is that, like many on the left, they view this as a law enforcement issue and not a military one. If you see this as the former, then actions taken under the latter will be viewed more critically, with a jaundiced eye. Law enforcement measures carry with it a whole host of concerns of rights for the accused; a presumption of innocence foremost. Military measures have, of course, a much lower standard and concerns of rights for the prisoner are secondary to the concerns of the safety of your troops. Plus, the old “we report on planes that crash, not the ones that landy safely” argument by the press is also used. SMG
Comment by SteveMG — 6/4/2005 @ 10:04 am
Put it Out! Put it Out! I keep reading breathless headlines were a Gitmo Koran was splashed with urine. American jailers at the Guantanamo prison for foreign terrorism suspects splashed a Koran with urine, kicked and stepped on the Islamic holy book and soaked it with water, …
Trackback by Sofia Sideshow — 6/4/2005 @ 10:06 am
We are never going to win this war when we mishandle a few Korans and the world thinks we’re sending millions into gulags. Why don’t we just say the obvious, that we liberated 50 million Arabs and if it takes a few damaged Qurans to do so, them so be it. What’s more important, 50 million people, two new democracies, or a few books? Good thing we didn’t kill a snail darter!!
Comment by Rob Mandel — 6/4/2005 @ 10:23 am
Would Nazi prisoners have been given copies of Mein Kampf, their ‘holy’ book to remind them of what they were fighting for–to rid the world of Jews? Why are Jihadists given the Koran, a book that motivates them to kill us infidels?
Comment by Stephen — 6/4/2005 @ 10:57 am
One thing I wondered is whether blowing up a Koran and covering it with human blood is desecration
Comment by Francis — 6/4/2005 @ 11:01 am
I wouldn’t be concerned about the usual distortions and obsfucations of the media. The bottom line is that most Americans distrust the media, know they’re liars, and want to live without terror in their midst or in the rest of the world. I might point out that terrorists used pages from the Bible as toilet paper at a Christian Church.
Comment by Patricia Downing — 6/4/2005 @ 11:55 am
Maybe we should stop having the argument on their grounds. They are ungrateful children and our own American media allows them to maintain this absurd double standard which makes it acceptable for them to kill people but a crime against humanity for the United States to sneeze in the presence of a Muslim. If their religion required that they be set free and given automatic rifles, would Newsweek and the New York Times be clamoring for that as well? It would certainly not surprise me! Anyway, Austin Bay, I linked to you over at my very unvisited blog. Just thought you should know I liked your commentary.
Comment by S — 6/4/2005 @ 12:23 pm
Koranhole my! ?Koran mishandling?? Please spare me. What’s next? Urinegate? (No; that still means something else….) Seriously, is this why we fought the war on terrorism? I mean, I didn’t have any more respect for the Koran than the Bible or any…
Trackback by Classical Values — 6/4/2005 @ 12:33 pm
Detainees Desecrate Koran Or U.S. Military? Let’s Kiss-up To The Enemy While He Blows Our House Down! In the continued relentless and ridiculous back-end slapping coddling of the enemy by the MSM, the Koran stories just keep bubbling up. It’s the most to do about nothing that I think I’ve ever witnessed.
Trackback by Hyscience — 6/4/2005 @ 12:34 pm
I believe Patricia is refering tothe occupation of the Church of the Nativity by Hamas in April-May, 2002. I wasn’t able to find a link to support her comment but I also remember reading reports that the Muslim occupiers had defiled holy areas in the church by using them as toliets.
Comment by Chris B — 6/4/2005 @ 12:44 pm
Patricia, You are correct about the majority of American’s thoughts on the Media. What is sad is that most of those on the New York Times and their fellow travelers have supported anti-American killers like Hitler and Stalin since the 1940’s. They even won Pulitzer prizes for their support of Joe Stalin’s murders. Their chickens are now coming home to roost. Old Media have lost all sense of honesty and decency. It would not surprise me to see many Americans yawn in the future, if their kind are simply eliminated. That is what the Main Stream media deserve. How sad?
Comment by leaddog2 — 6/4/2005 @ 12:44 pm
I believe Commenter 24 is talking about the incident in Bethlehem when Palestanian terrorists took over some chapel. The priests in there reported that the men were tearing up bibles to use as toilet paper. No word on these claims were ever substantiated.
Comment by DayCruz — 6/4/2005 @ 12:47 pm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1405368/posts There’s a URL for the previous comment.
Comment by DayCruz — 6/4/2005 @ 12:48 pm
I found a WorldNewsDaily article which cites the May 15, 2002 Washington Times, but I couldn’t quickly track down the original story. The Palestinian terrorists who occupied the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem for five weeks in 2002 used pages from the Bible for toilet paper. Also they looted valuable religious artifacts from the church on the site where Christ was born! No big deal, though.
Comment by P Grady — 6/4/2005 @ 1:00 pm
Re ” terrorists used pages from the Bible as toilet paper at a Christian Church” I heard this story in the context of the Palastinian occupation of the Church of the Nativity in Bethleham. This is a bit of a “red herring” in that Christianity tends to rever the content of the book, not the book itself. As a Chistian, if I were in a similar situation, I would unhesitatingly use a Bible . My commitment to the Word is not measured by my commitment to the paper on which it is printed.
Comment by Robert — 6/4/2005 @ 1:01 pm
This was when Palestinian terrorists took over the famed Church of the Nativity in Israel, A Story is here, also of interst is a CNSNews peice about Saudi shredding Bibles that were confiscated from visitors to the kingdom..
Comment by Joefish — 6/4/2005 @ 1:05 pm
WMD article here on Bibles used for TP. Also ,a href=”http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200505\FOR20050519a.html”>read about Saudis shredding Bibles that wereconfiscated from visitors to the kingdom.
Comment by Joefish — 6/4/2005 @ 1:07 pm
Austin, I think Patricia in #24 is referring to the taking of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem by Palestinian gunmen in 2002. It has been widely reported that the Catholic Priests in the church have attested to misuse of the Bible by hostage takers. Witnesses have said that the gunment used the altar in the church to cook and eat meals and that they removed many holy objects from the church before their surrender was negotiated and they were sent off to live the good life in Europe without fear of prosecution. Brian
Comment by Brian R — 6/4/2005 @ 1:15 pm
There is one simple way to end all of this Koran desecration hogwash: remove all Korans from Guantanamo. Nobody has one, therefore there can be no desecration. Let the prisoners recite it from memory.
Comment by Grant R. Miner — 6/4/2005 @ 1:20 pm
In response to your request for a link to the Bible being used for toilet paper. The story was “‘Greedy Monsters’ Ruled Church,” Washington Times, May 15, 2002, in reference to the PA & The Church of the Nativity. An archive search requires payment I believe. A free resource (with extensive footnotes) that quotes that article and a few more about Muslim treatment of Christins may be found at http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp490.htm
Comment by Richard Roark — 6/4/2005 @ 1:36 pm
Regarding the detainees themselves flushing pages of the Koran down the toilet, I was thinking about Mike Durant, the special operations Blackhawk pilot of “Blackhawk Down” fame. In his book, he describes using a bible to keep notes of his captivity - locations, etc; maybe its possible these guys are doing the same and for some reason thought the info would be compromised. A reivew of the Al Qaida training manual also shows that one of the objectives of Jihad is to save/release captive brothers. They have tried this in Iraq, why not Guantananmo (other than for the fact its well protected of course)? Just a thought.
Comment by Anthony — 6/4/2005 @ 1:46 pm
Austin - since you asked, the bible as toilet paper allegation appeared in World Net Daily - which has had credibility issues in the past. It has since been picked up by lots of others, such as Sean Hannity, but as far as I can tell, the original allegaitons all go back to WND.
Comment by jeremy in NYC — 6/4/2005 @ 1:48 pm
Austin - the original allegation appeared in World Net Daily - take that for what you will. Since then, others (such as Sean Hannity) have picked the story up, but they all seem to trace back to WND.
Comment by jeremy in NYC — 6/4/2005 @ 1:50 pm
Here’s a Fox news item about the Church of the Nativity episode. No reference to Bibles used as TP, but plenty of other desecrations.
Comment by ExRat — 6/4/2005 @ 2:02 pm
Our President gave a word to the world that we will treat the detainees humanely and follow Geneva conventions for some of them. We either should tell the world that we will be brutal in this war to win it or follow all applicable rules. We can not have it both ways. The President gave a word and now has to apologize profusely. He has brought so much embrassment to me and all Americans when he keeps on apologizing.
Comment by Vikram — 6/4/2005 @ 4:13 pm
Detainees outdo soldiers Koran abuse 3 to 1 You won’t hear CAIR wringing their hands over this one: Austin Bay Blog � Fifteen to Five: Terrorists Beat Gitmo Guards in Koran “Mishandlingâ€.
Trackback by Area417 — 6/4/2005 @ 4:45 pm
Cute Headlines Some bloggers have come up with cute headlines for the Guantanamo report
Trackback by Don Singleton — 6/4/2005 @ 5:08 pm
So first, assume that the BG is telling the truth, and isn’t leaving anything out (even though he obviously has a huge incentive to lie if there’s something worth covering up, and even though the military has refused to allow any independent investigation into Gitmo at all). If you believe all that, then really, it looks like everything is fine at Guantanamo. Or, to put it another way, the United States military doesn’t have a human rights problem… according to the United States military. And since no one else is allowed to look into the situation, no one else has a valid opinion. How sad that the rallying cry of the right in America has become “trust big brother”
Comment by Dan Gatti — 6/4/2005 @ 5:31 pm
Vikram – you write that you are embarrassed that Bush has not fulfilled his promise “to treat the detainees humanely and follow Geneva conventions for some of them.†Where exactly has he failed? He could easily do with the Gitmo crew what we did with German POWs during WWII when we put some to work on farms to help the war effort. I’ve not heard any elites complain about such treatment, so why not put the Gitmo folks to work on hog farms in Iowa? I should point out that Bush said the prisoners would be treated “consistent†with the Geneva conventions. He recognizes that the folks held at Gitmo don’t qualify for the full Geneva Monty.
Comment by The Kid — 6/4/2005 @ 6:23 pm
46 Dan Gatti, There are 3-4 groups independent of the US Military that regularly visist or are constantly onsite at GITMO. These are: Red Cross: http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList265/541ACF6DC88315C4C125700B004FF643 That is a link to the ICRC www site with teir GITMO concerns. I found NO mention of Tortre or Koran abuse at GITMO. FBI: Maintains agents onsite at GITMO and clearly theagents as evidenced by the ACL FOIA mateial, have an independent mission to observe and report. Press Visits. US andArab press US Lawyers chasing ambulances and headlines
Comment by The Drill SGT — 6/4/2005 @ 8:04 pm
46 There is plenty of independent oversight of the BG at GITMO. Here are 4 I know of: 1. ICRC, The Red Cross does visits and talks privately with inmates. They may ave a full time preence. Here is their report. http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList265/541ACF6DC88315C4C125700B004FF643 Note that it makes N Mention of Tortue or Koran abuse. 2. The FBI, clerly since the ACLU FOIA’d FBI reports on GITMO, the FBI has a full time team there and makes reports up its Chain of Comman 3. US and Arab Press regularly are invited. 4. US Lawyers are now showing up chasing ambulaces and Headlines. Plenty , too many folks watching what’s going on, and not all of them want Western Civilization to survive
Comment by The Drill SGT — 6/4/2005 @ 8:14 pm
I apologize for those typos
Comment by The Drill SGT — 6/4/2005 @ 8:24 pm
Austin, Another thought that you might care to comment on. Don’t you find it interesting that the ICRC, the Media and the Left, (I apologize if I’m being redundant there) spent the last half of the 20th century arguing that people that castrated Village chiefs and set off bombs in markets were not criminals but rather soliders in “wars of National Liberation and needed to be handled like POWs rather than being tried and then lined up against the nearest wall and shot. Now, the polarity has been reversed and the Left’s argument is that you can’t handle people that castrated Village chiefs and set off bombs in markets as POWs. but you must set them free if you don’t have enough witnesses to bring them to trial. me thinks there’s more than a little hypocrisy there.
Comment by The Drill SGT — 6/4/2005 @ 9:33 pm
Newsweek’s incendiary story that the Military “flushed a Koran down the toilet” now is completely false. The facts are the opposite. GITMO detainees desecrated the Koran by “…ripping pages out of the Quran, attempting to flush a Quran down the toilet and urinating on the Quran…” Newsweeks clearly reversed the facts to suit their agenda which caused the deaths of many innocent people. I would suggest the ACLU file a lawsuit against Newsweek and its parent company (The Washington Post Co.) for reckless disregard of the facts and purposely instigating a riot leading the needless deaths and injury of innocent civilians who believed Newsweek told the truth. Further, the editors at Newsweek who were responsible for the fabricated story should be held personally liable for damage they caused. Lastly, Newsweek should publicly apologize to those they hurt or slandered.
Comment by Ledger Man — 6/4/2005 @ 10:12 pm
War On The Home Front In case anyone was wondering, or even if they are not, I’m going to set something straight here. I don’t give a rat’s ass about the Koran. It is a book that has absolutely no meaning for me. I have never read it, nor do I intend to read it. I place …
Trackback by Toe In The Water — 6/4/2005 @ 11:19 pm
A Gitmo Transcript Q: Please come to order. This inquest has been called to investigate claims that several copies of the Koran may have been mishandled by personnel at this facility. The next witness is before the pane…
Trackback by Spartac.us — 6/5/2005 @ 12:51 am
The Insanity And they simply laugh at Jesus in urine….
Trackback by Sierra Faith — 6/5/2005 @ 2:27 am
Your thoughts are right on, but this is the most tiresome discussion yet in the ongoing self-flagellation of America’s MSM. I have a recommendation for anyone who doesn’t want his Koran ripped, kicked, dappled with urine, or otherwise endangered: Don’t take up arms against the USA and get captured. War is hell - prisons of any kind are not more than one step removed from that in the best of circumstances. Grow up!!!!
Comment by The Bullfrog — 6/5/2005 @ 5:33 am
“The Pentagon on Friday released new details about mishandling of the Quran at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects, confirming that a soldier deliberately kicked the Muslim holy book and that an interrogator stepped on a Quran and was later fired for “a pattern of unacceptable behavior.†In other confirmed incidents, a guard’s urine came through an air vent and splashed on a detainee and his Quran; water balloons thrown by prison guards caused an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet; and in a confirmed but ambiguous case, a two-word obscenity was written in English on the inside cover of a Quran.” This is utterly disgusting. We Americans should be ashamed of such behavior. Disrespecting someone’s religion is a definite no in any book, especially when it comes from us.
Comment by Sandy Nair — 6/5/2005 @ 5:40 am
The Quran, The Bible: Two books, two standards I guess the most regrettable aspect of this issue is that there is no introspection, no attempt to acknowledge bias and double standards in a profession that is supposedly based on equity and objectivity. Commentary and editorials can reflect a slant…
Trackback by CrossFishFreedom: Blogospheric Spam — 6/5/2005 @ 8:07 am
Sandy (57)…I assume you have already called Sen. Harkin’s office to complain about the comments he made about Christians while on an Air America program the other day. Why have you not expressed shock over the 15 confirmed instances of Koran abuse by detainees? Is “Piss Christ” art or abuse of a Christian symbol in your book. Stop navel gazing and get some perspective.
Comment by kyle — 6/5/2005 @ 11:34 am
This is not a low-intensity conflict, this is a total war. The enemy has yet to find a delivery system capable of hitting the targets that it has identified, but it’s working on it. Any one obstructing the fight should be cognizant of the lashback when the target is reached. It will cease being a game.
Comment by Mike H. — 6/5/2005 @ 1:33 pm
I am reminded of the movie by Howard Stern, “Private Parts”, where the marketing guy of the station was talking to the GM about Stern’s audience. He said something to the effect that a percentage of Stern’s audience love him and listen to see what he is going to say next. The rest hate him, but tune in to see what he is going to say next. The media is not so much interested in the truth as it is in selling newspapers and airtime. It is not in their interest to calm things down. This is a “Davey and Goliath” story, writ large and it won’t sell if the commentary is about how swell the giant is. Every editor knows that his readers won’t read onto the next page unless the reader is compelled to do so. Fear or fury are compelling and easy reasons to achieve this. Let’s be thankful, they can’t sell any fear today. If all the MSM has to sell is urine stained Korans, then we must be winning the war on terrorism.
Comment by SnowMonster — 6/5/2005 @ 5:19 pm
Idiocy, plain and simple Have you had enough of the MSM’s focus on Koran abuse (and that’s just Friday through Sunday)? I have. Thankfully, there are voices of reason out there who are putting things into perspective.
Trackback by Brutally Honest — 6/5/2005 @ 8:55 pm
With all of hoopla about the fake Newsweek story, I would like to ask a few questions. Can the upcoming Hollywood movie “The Da Vinci Code” be considered desecration of the Bible? Will Amnesty International call Hollywood, “an American gulag?” Will our own Revolutionary watch Committee (a.k.a. the ACLU) sue producers to satisfy their proclivity to snoop? Probably not.
Comment by Mwalimu Daudi — 6/6/2005 @ 1:44 pm
If only it were just a case of Amnesty and the ICRC being “designed” for assessing circumstances during wars of nation-states. As humanitarian organizations, these should be secondary concerns: What should but manifestly does not, concern them is detailed, impartial investigation/monitoring of abuses on both collective and individual levels. In recent years, both have descended to mere left-ideological apologists for terrorists and their sponsors, “state” or non-State, the criteria being simply opposition to any and all American policy initiatives. Absent integrity, committment to the business of ameliorating actual vs. phoney abuses, contributing to such organizations plays directly into the hands of Castro, Kim Jong-il, Mugabe, and others of their ilk. Cliches as they may be, we who join Austin Bay cannot repeat these sentiments too often
Comment by John Blake — 6/12/2005 @ 5:59 pm
My brother John and I just started a blog together that is a bit satirical in nature. We plan on featuring parody songs of current events. John is a standup comic and musician in Kansas City and we are currently featuring a parody of the Rolling Stones Satisfaction sung by a protesting prisoner at Guantanamo Bay. “Im at Gitmo - out of action” you might want to check it out. Dave
Comment by Dave — 6/15/2005 @ 7:55 pm
The bottom line is that these people detained in GITMO are terrorists. They do not fall under the Geneva Convention. I do not agree with the mishandling of prisoners, everyone should be treated with respect. How far do we go wit that philosphy, who knows. Let’s make something clear these people want to kill americans, they cannot stand us and eventually will attack again. The United Staes needs and must take a stand against these terrorists groups. I can’t believe were so concerned aboutthe way he hand a Quran to these people, only in America! They burn our flag, drag American soldiers through the streets and please do not forget the treatment of Jessica Lynch, who I might add does fall under the Geneva Convention. All these folks who think they know how War is and what it takes to win one, go to your local recruiter office and sign up and make a difference. After you serve in a forward location then write and do interviews about your thoughts and journeys, otherwise talk about something else.
Comment by Larry R. Holt — 6/18/2005 @ 1:16 pm
Thankfully, there are voices of reason out there who are putting things into perspective.
Comment by floh — 9/16/2005 @ 8:07 am
[…] Austin Bay Blog Fifteen to Five: Terrorists Beat Gitmo Guards in Koran Mishandling […]
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